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The 2009 SoftLetter
SaaS Report
Over 425 pages of invaluable data and survey results on SaaS from the viewpoint of technology providers. “This report includes the most extensive benchmarking data available in the SaaS market today,” Jeff Kaplan, Managing Director of THINKstrategies, Inc. and the SaaS Showplace. Complete TOC and previews here
SoftLetter
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Softletter is the leading source of up-to-the-minute information about the development and growth of SaaS in the industry. Upcoming articles focus on the impact of SaaS on product management, developing SaaS terms of service and reseller agreements, the costs of SaaS infrastructure, new surveys on SaaS business and marketing tactics and strategies and much more. Find out more
The Product Marketing
Handbook for Software,
4th Edition
In Search of Stupidity:
Over 20 Years of High-Tech
Marketing Disasters,
2nd Edition
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rchapman1
Posts:26
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| 07/07/2009 12:18 PM |
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I seem to have brought down a great deal of ill-tempered wrath from the CrankyPM (no great surprise; she really IS cranky much of the time. And does she really think it's a good idea to call people names when "she" and her company might someday be revealed? But a persona has no such concerns). But, I nonetheless think that between the invective there are some interesting things to learn from the exchange.
Let's take them one by one.
Of course, before I begin, it DOES behoove me to remind you of what the persona's website says:
" Everything in this blog fiction. Everything. You’ve been warned. Any resemblances to real-world individuals/corporations — living or dead, public or private, acquired or delisted — is purely coincidental."
First, the CrankyPM doesn't like that I believe the following may be true:
+++ But CRIPES it ticks her off, especially when he further posits that the CPM is a project of a commercial firm, written by someone who is familiar with product management but never had the role, and that the author is just making obscenity deleted up in her posts. +++
I don't know why this should annoy anyone; it's just logical thinking. Look, the CPM site is very professionally put together. Nicely placed ads regularly updated. An awful lot of content posted up consistently. That takes a lot of work and not many line PMs have that kind of time (especially one who says she's a relatively new mother). The site looks like a commercial operation. I could be wrong and it's more fun to imagine the CPM is exactly what she says she is. And who doesn't like the jeans?
+++ As is abundantly apparent to every reader EXCEPT The Jackass, the Cranky Product Manager’s author is a REAL product manager +++
It's not abundantly apparent because the CPM wrote about an incident that was patently ridiculous to a real person and someone with line PM experience. As the persona acknowledges:
+++ Regarding the story The Jackass claims “didn’t happen,” and thus cites as “proof” that the CPM is not a real product manager….well, SORRY, Jackass, but it DID happen. Not to the Cranky Product Manager personally, as is the case with 75% of the stories in this blog +++
Well. We're deep down the rabbit hole here. A web site owned by a persona now tells us a story about "herself" turns out to be something that happened to a "former co-worker."
Now, let me repeat, in terms the CPM will understand. When you tell us that you--oops! not you--a former co-worker "asks each rep, one at a time, how much product he/she was committing to sell based on the new price," I'm telling you NO FREAKING WAY. Line product managers do not send out sales forecast requests to a field sales force without going through the sales department. And no sales rep would have answered those E-mails on pain of a new, infinite quota plan.
Probably the reason the persona's co-worker is a FORMER co-worker is that they were dumb enough to try this stunt once. And what then happened is the VP of sales crawled up their rear fundament, nested in their pleural cavity, tranformed into the CrankyAlien, and exited their chest a la the hapless John Hurt in the original "Alien."
And yes, I read the post. I read the part where your "friend" told you what he/she did and what you then reported as something "you" did.
Your friend got it wrong. CEOs don't tell line PMs to go get forecasts from field sales reps. That sort of request would be ignored by the field until the VP of sales gave them the all clear. And the VP of sales wouldn't do THAT until they went straight to the CEO and asked why the head guy was bypassing sales and did the CEO REALLY want dozens of sales forecast flying through the wires to land on some middle manager's desk who might not understand how sensitive that information is and DOES the CEO understand that while the sales force is scrambling to develop sales projection for some middle manager somewhere they are NOT making sales?
As I said, when I read this sort of thing, it makes me wonder if you've worked in a real software company. (Oh, the recursion is making my head ache.)
+++ if the PM function reports into you, if you think product management’s main job is maintaining the tick-list, +++
Ah, some substance. There's been a lot of screaming about my take on tick list management. Let's use a real world example to see just how prized this function is among PM training programs. Let's take a look at Pragmatic's take on the value of this aspect of a PM's job:
Here's from their training price list:
Practical Product Management
Seminar fees
$1,595 $1,395 US per person for the 2-day Practical Product Management seminar. You must book before August 31st for $1,395 US price.
$2,195 $1,895 US per person for the 3-day Practical Product Management with Requirements That Work seminar.
$995 $895 US per person for the 1-day Requirements That Work seminar. You must book before August 31st for $895 US price.
Want to be Pragmatically Agile? Cost is $595. Want to develop the product roadmap to the stars? $495.
I think these numbers speak for themselves. And if the CPM is not managing the tick list, racking and stacking customer requests for new functionality and services in "Dysfuncto Soft's" products, just what is she doing? After all, the tick list is the distillation of customer desires, is it not? The mechanism by which development (in theory) prioritizes its coding schedule. The sum of all customer desires, and, after all, aren't software companies supposed to be "customercentric?" To live, eat, and breathe customer satisfaction? Kind of strange if you're not constantly referring back to that list!
+++ She’d rather focus her energy on companies that want someone to research customer problems, to be the voice of the MARKET (and not just current customers), +++
I've heard this mantra before and I'd like to ask the CPM to explain further what she means by "the market." Assuming she's actually working with a real product and real people, her customer base is a market of usage and ideas. I don't think she's claiming to speak for the ENTIRE market; if her product is supposed to help manage HR functions I don't think the CPM is qualified to develop a business case for developing software that manages datasets created from deep sea/ground oil exploration activities.
I'll also assume her product has some significant market share. If so, then her customer base represents a statistically valid and representative sampling of her market. I'll also assume her product competes with other software products. And that people from the various companies using her products move to other companies using other products and vice versa.
IOW, a customer base is not a static thing. It's constantly changing, evolving, and adjusting to the market and the market adjusts to it.
Now, when the CPM and other organizations describe how current PM training programs teach companies how to react and manage a customer base, they are doing so in the context of what is possible with desktop and on premise, client-server systems. Within the constraints imposed by the nature of these products, PMs do the best they can.
But SaaS companies, can, and do, operate under a very different model, one that allows them to do things the CPM has never imagined doing. And that's because whoever writes and manages the site doesn't work in a SaaS environment; you can tell that almost immediately from the topics under discussion in the blog. If you're a SaaS company, the CPM is...well...sort of obsolete. A bit retro, like her jeans. (But I like the jeans!)
Now, I'm going to do something to help things along. I first wrote about how SaaS was changing product management in the July 31st, 2008 issue of Softletter. I'm just back from our SaaS University in Chicago. Very successful event, 70 paid attendees, just about all Cx0. I gave a presentation on product management and SaaS which was video taped and will be online (PPV) in about 30 days. I need to catch up on several things, but in a few days I will post the entire 07/31/2008 issue in PDF format free for online downloading (you will have to register at www.saasuniversity.com to gain access).
The article discussing product management and SaaS was not written by a persona and does not refer to "coworkers." Rather, it discusses a real company doing real things as explained by the firm's CEO and head of marketing. Read it, think about it, come to your own conclusions.
rick
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Paco (guest)
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| 07/08/2009 11:55 PM |
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" Everything in this blog fiction. Everything. You’ve been warned. Any resemblances to real-world individuals/corporations — living or dead, public or private, acquired or delisted — is purely coincidental."
Rick, that's obviously boilerplate. And tongue-in-cheek boilerplate at that. Because the CPM is a real PM at a real company and the CPM isn't blowing sunshine up everyone's collective arses about the chunder-struck world of Product Management and the bone-headedness of her/his/its coworkers, it behooves her/him/it to use such boilerplate to cover her/his/its backside in case someone figures out who she/he/it really is. Your site is in a different vein - you're marketing your own content and services, and that's fine. And obviously, given your business, you want your site to make it clairvoyantly clear who you are, what you look like, how to reach you, etc. That's not the CPMs bag.
About the story about the CEO and the sales forecast, how to put this? Umm, yeah, this sort of crap happens. Maybe it's more of a small and midsize company thing, but this seems totally believable to me. I've worked at a company where the VP of sales was a useless drunk (and not very bright to boot). And when you've got Drinky Crow steering the sales ship Valdez, it's totally normal to blow him off and deal directly with regional sales managers and the top hunters to get numbers. You must've lived a charmed life at MicroPro and Ashton-Tate to have had nothing but competent coworkers, and not a single compulsive-liar, pyromaniac, or fugitive-from-the-law in the bunch 
About the whole SaaS making PMs in the vein of the CPM obsolete, I'm not buying that yet. You've got a lot of years under your belt so I'm not dismissing your POV out of hand. But suffice it to say, the best PMs I've worked with would be just as invaluable at a desktop software company, an Internet portal site, a B2B exchange, etc. |
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rchapman1
Posts:26
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| 07/09/2009 7:25 AM |
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+++ Rick, that's obviously boilerplate. +++
I'm sorry, that's NOT "boilerplate." That's a specific statement with specific legal weight and it removes the CPM and the site from any legal accountability for what is said, the accuracy of the statements posted, and the facts presented.
If you don't understand this, I have a large bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.
+++ Because the CPM is a real PM at a real company and the CPM isn't blowing sunshine up everyone's collective arses +++
Well, SOMEONE is real and SOMEONE writes the posts; current AI doesn't permit me to speculate on a robotic persona. Who they are, I don't really know and I'm not really concerned. Again, I note that I have been a line PM. I can't imagine having the time and energy to do my job, manage a family, and also maintain a blog of that sort at that level of activity. The site looks like a commercial clacking project but I could be wrong.
Regardless, much of the content is fun to read. But please remember that the site owner has relieved themselves of any accountability for the accuracy and truthfulness of what "she" writes so use commonsense before following her examples of work practices.
+++ About the story about the CEO and the sales forecast, how to put this? Umm, yeah, this sort of crap happens. +++
I'm sure everything happens at least once. And if you've got a situation where the VP of sales is an alcoholic and the sales department has broken down, I imagine all kinds of strange things happen. The CPM didn't tell us her VP of sales was a drunk.
I bet that once this VP had left the scene the normal rules of engagement in your company were restored. And in a normal company, line PMs don't do what what she described and if YOU do it, you'll get your ears pinned back. I venture to say that you're not doing it now because it would take an upper management breakdown like the one you describe for you to get away with bypassing upper management in terms of getting sales forecasts direct from the field.
No, I wasn't blessed at MicroPro or AT, but the sales heads at neither company were alcoholics. I've been a VP of PM; in that case, I DID get sales forecasts (sometimes) but I obtained them from my peer in sales. I would never be stupid enough to tell my reports to attempt to bypass sales in the way that was described. (By the "former co-worker.")
+++ About the whole SaaS making PMs in the vein of the CPM obsolete, I'm not buying that yet. +++
Paco, I'll put the 07/31/2008 issue of SL up next week; you can read it and my third post and then make up you own mind. I do believe the dynamics of the position and responsibilities will change radically at SaaS firms and it's quite possible the PM title will change/vanish, though that's not really the point. What will change is what you do, how you do it, and the level of accountability you will now own.
I will be very interested in your take and opinion.
rick
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The Author of Cranky PM (guest)
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| 07/13/2009 2:23 AM |
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Gah. I'm writing this as "the author" because I can't keep the CPM third-person/cranky schtick up for this. And everything I say herein is true.
I gotta admit, this whole conversation with you is kind of baffling to me. I mean, this incident DID happen. And YES, the VP of Sales agreed to it.
The incident was not surprising to me because in my 5-15 years as a PM at various companies, I've occasionally had similar responsibilities.
As I write this, I find myself attempting to explain this situation in more detail to convince you (even though I really shouldn't bother because I can see you will never yield on any of your conclusions). But each of my attempts to explain contain too much identifying information, so I cannot. I'll just say that 1) some products are add-ons that are not sold "stand-alone," so sales reps don't have official quotas for the add-on. Thus asking reps outside the normal quota-setting process is the only way to get a bottom-up forecast, 2) sometimes the VP of Sales is concerned enough about getting the right price that s/he buys off on the need for some additional research. And why have a rep/sales manager take time away from selling to do it when the CEO offers up the PM to do it? 3) sometimes the line PM doesn't report to a VP Product, but to a VP of Sales & Marketing, or the CEO directly. 4) sometimes the company is small enough and new enough that these political shenanigans don't happen, 5) Sometimes the CEO tells the VP of Sales to suck it up, buttercup.
One thing I've learned from writing this blog, and from all the stories I've heard from readers, is that PM structure and responsibilities vary wildly, yet the frustrations are the same everywhere.
But given your experience in PM, you KNOW this. You know how varied the job is from company to company, based on company size, company age, where PM reports, the variety of the product line, the skill-set of the founders/execs, etc...
I know this incident happened. You insist that that it couldn't have. Result: neither of us can intellectually resolve my real-world experience, my colleague's real-world experience, and your knowledge of product management.
Clearly you are having difficulty reconciling this too - thus your conclusion is the incident is completely fictional and that I'm a figment of Pragmatic Marketing (or some other firm's) imagination.
Now, how can _I_ reconcile it? The only thing I can conclude is that you are not aware of how truly diverse the PM profession is across the universe of software companies - something that I expect you to disagree with vehemently. But I can think of no other explanation. And while you may convince my readers that this incident didn't happen, you will never convince me.
As far as your other arguments about tick-lists and such, I disagree with you but it is too late and I don't have the energy to respond. I will say that I think any company that takes your tick-list philosophy to heart will have real difficulty attracting quality,passionate PMs. Cuz seriously, a robot (or voting software, as you suggested) could manage the tick-list.
Anyway, I thank you for complimenting my blog's look - it's based on Wordpress, a bunch of Wordpress plugins, and the Thesis theme, which combine to create a professional looking site with minimal work. You should check it out since you are clearly having difficulty with your current website setup. In fact, I am willing to help you set up on Wordpress / Thesis if you want - it should only take me 2-3 hours if you get a fresh Linux hosting account.
And as far as where do I get the time to blog given my job and family, well, I really DON'T have the time. I just have no life other than my job, my kid, and my blogs. I heard other people have these things called "hobbies," watch this thing called "TV," partake in more than 5 hours of sleep a night, and even "work out" occasionally, but that's not me. I started this blog before my son, when I had more time, and got it really going while on maternity leave. Since then, I barely manage to post more than twice a month (fortunately I've had lots of guest posters in 2009 to pick up the slack). When I post, though, it often helps me with my job stress. Venting and all that.
Oh, and I WISH those were my jeans. My real-world ass is much fatter. Stock photography, baby! |
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rchapman1
Posts:26
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| 07/13/2009 9:44 AM |
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+++ I gotta admit, this whole conversation with you is kind of baffling to me. I mean, this incident DID happen. And YES, the VP of Sales agreed to it. +++
I'd go back and add that little detail. Because your description of your friend's action reads like SOP in PM, and we both know it's not. If someone took your story literally, in the vast majority of circumstances they'd land in very, very hot water if they attempted to reproduce your original narrative.
+++ I'll just say that 1) some products are add-ons that are not sold "stand-alone," so sales reps don't have official quotas for the add-on. Thus asking reps outside the normal quota-setting process is the only way to get a bottom-up forecast, 2) sometimes the VP of Sales is concerned enough about getting the right price that s/he buys off on the need for some additional research. And why have a rep/sales manager take time away from selling to do it when the CEO offers up the PM to do it? 3) sometimes the line PM doesn't report to a VP Product, but to a VP of Sales & Marketing, or the CEO directly. 4) sometimes the company is small enough and new enough that these political shenanigans don't happen, 5) Sometimes the CEO tells the VP of Sales to suck it up, buttercup. +++
First, let me point out that the story you narrated was based on a third party anecdote and a few little details may have been left out. Second, I'm aware that there are exceptions to rules. For example, at a small compay, sure! What you described might happen. But you work at a much larger software company, one that's large enough to have built a very standard PM management system. The model you describe at your firm is almost identical to the one used by MicroPro when I joined the company in 1983. And in YOUR type of company, your narration rang false.
+++ But given your experience in PM, you KNOW this. You know how varied the job is from company to company, based on company size, company age, where PM reports, the variety of the product line, the skill-set of the founders/execs, etc... ++++
Yes, I do. I write about the standard PM models in the fourth edition of The Product Marketing Handbook for Software. And, SL will soon launch a comprehensive software company and staffing survey that will provide insights into how software companies organize and staff themselves. (I'll be surprised if many firms tell us that PM reports into sales; that's been tried before without much success.)
+++ And while you may convince my readers that this incident didn't happen, you will never convince me. +++
Well, you ARE narrating someone else's experience, not your own.
I don't want to belabor this issue. You left a key detail out of the narrative. I'd be very careful about that in the future. You might help someone save their career.
+++ As far as your other arguments about tick-lists and such, I disagree with you but it is too late and I don't have the energy to respond. I will say that I think any company that takes your tick-list philosophy to heart will have real difficulty attracting quality,passionate PMs. Cuz seriously, a robot (or voting software, as you suggested) could manage the tick-list. +++
I'm not sure how you can reasonably argue the importance of tick list management in PM. The Pragmatic price list certainly provides insight into how THEY value the process. Tick list management actually drove a new level of specialization in PM in the late 90s, "technical product managers" or requirements managers. Any software company (actually, just about any company) manages and maintains a tick list of some type that documents, sorts, and prioritizes projected new features and capabilities. I've never said it was ALL PMs do, but do it they do and they spend a lot of time doing it.
But I don't believe this will be the same story with SaaS companies.
+++Anyway, I thank you for complimenting my blog's look - it's based on Wordpress, a bunch of Wordpress plugins, and the Thesis theme, which combine to create a professional looking site with minimal work. You should check it out since you are clearly having difficulty with your current website setup.+++
The SL site is a mess and will shortly be replaced by a new site built on top of dotnet nuke. I won't bore you with the technical details of why this choice was made but thanks for your offer!
One final thing. I'm going to accept your statement that you are pretty much who you say are (though I could be wrong)! It's really not that important to me, as I've said. I will be much more interested in your take/opinions on my belief that PM is going to change radically at SaaS companies.
But there was no need to become personal about it. I didn't call you a Jackass, nor ever resort to the type of name calling T. Grant indulged in. I can attack and disagree with an argument without resorting to personal invective.
After all, you're the CRANKYPM! Not the NastyPM.
rick |
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